The Root of All Happiness - an interview

"Chastity strikes at the root of all human happiness, and consigns more than half of the human race to misery" - (Shelley)

"Chastity: the most unnatural of all sexual perversions" - (Huxley)

Over the Summer and Autumn of 2005, I conducted 21 face-to-face interviews with various people for a book I had been commissioned to write on 'Sexuality in the New Millenium'. It was intended to be a lavish coffee-table book, illustrated with professionally taken photos (anonymous if required by the interviewees).

My draft treatment for the book was to assemble a total of 52 selected interviews, one for each week of the year, divided into 12 Chapters, following the rhythms of the months and Seasons of the year. Unfortunately, during the project the publishers went into liquidation and my financing and impetus were lost.

This post is a transcript of one interview conducted last June that is relevant to this site. I had placed adverts in suitable magazines and online publications for individuals, couples and groups involved in a variety of types of consensual relationships or practices who were prepared to talk to me, giving their permission for me to publish, usually subject to their anonymity. Every conversation was conducted in person rather than online or over the phone. Although I interviewed people involved in everything from straightforward swinging and casual sex, to rubber fetishists and adult babies, a particular interest of mine is consensual, 24/7 bdsm relationships, whether male-dom, lesbian or, as in this case, hetero fem-dom. In the event, 'Lisa' was sadly the only genuine female dominant who contacted me over the entire six months that I advertised.

Before we met, Lisa had made it clear that she did not expect to give me too many "sordid details" about their sex life. I readily agreed since my book was intended to be erotica not pure pornography and I wasn't exactly spoiled for choice. I should admit that I had never done any interviewing before and this was only the third of the 21 that I conducted. I was only partially successful in finding out as much as I hoped and I apologise to all readers who are disappointed by the lack of juicy particulars in what follows. After exchanging several emails and phone calls, they eventually agreed to meet me at their home, in the commuter belt south of London. I have excluded the first fifteen minutes of 'small talk' after my arrival.

I have changed their names and eliminated the usual 'ers' and 'ums' from the text, and slightly amended occasional grammatical errors that we all make when thinking aloud. Otherwise, I have generally stuck with their exact choice of words and our taped conversation is reproduced verbatim here.

Lisa is a 34 years old solicitor. She is brunette, very attractive, with huge expressive brown eyes, and an animated face that was quick to change from wicked laughter to a puckered brow. It was a Friday evening when we met and she was still in her 'office attire', dressed in a charcoal grey jacket and skirt, with a white silk blouse that accentuated her breasts and lithe body. She sipped white wine throughout our interview and placed a pack of cigarettes on the coffee table. She mentioned she was trying to give up smoking but would probably have to light up before long, because she had never been interviewed before, let alone about her sex life. She looked at the portfolio of the top photographer I was suggesting to do a shoot of her the following weekend, and hesitantly agreed to pose, so long as they were tasteful photos and provided her face was masked in some way.

Carlo is her 32 years old husband. They have been together 7 years. He is half Italian and half English, born in London. He works in the fashion industry. He is lean and toned, with dark olive skin, lustrous black hair and handsome, high cheekbones. He was dressed in a black polo neck sweater and corduroy trousers. It's a cliché, perhaps, but you really would not have picked them out as anything other than a typical well educated, good looking, articulate and professional couple. He drank sparkling water but was quick to top up both my and Lisa's wine glasses whenever they became less than half full. He sat on the floor with his back to the sofa on which Lisa sat. It was not in an overtly submissive pose, but nevertheless I immediately noticed how naturally the two of them settled down that way.

Interview:

V:	Thank you both for seeing me. I've turned on my tape recorder. Okay ?
Lisa:	Sure.
V:	Let's start at the beginning if we may. Please tell me how you two met.
Lisa:	The usual way, I guess, through mutual friends. At dinner. I was sat next to Carlo. We were mutually attracted right away but there was no hint of things to come. If anything, I thought he was that typical Latin-type, a mummy's boy but with a macho attitude to women. This was nearly 8 years ago. He didn't ask me out. In fact, I was seeing somebody else at the time anyway. We talked all evening and just said goodnight. It was only 9 months later that we met again and started seeing each other.
V:	And how soon did you both discover your mutual interests ?
Lisa:	Oh, it took a while. We were pretty much a vanilla couple for more than a year. We've been married 5 ½ years now and have been living this lifestyle for just over 5 years. So we took our time. I mean, we did a bit of bondage and role play stuff, but nothing serious. I'll let Carlo speak for himself in a moment but, for me, I think both of us subconsciously wanted to lay some decent foundations to our relationship first. I mean, I knew early on he was excited by the idea of submission to me, though I had no idea at that stage how far he wanted to go. I was obviously keen on exploring it too. But I wanted a husband first and a slave second.
Carlo:	Thanks. From my point of view, I was frightened of pushing it and losing Lisa. It was, like, my fantasies frightened even me and so I feared they would freak her out, you know. We had fun with tying me up and teasing but I found that got ... well ... ordinary quite quickly. But I didn't dare make any suggestions to her even though I'd wanted to for a long time. It was only after we were married and it all built up too much inside me that I had to write Lisa a letter. I couldn't say the words out loud, only write them down.
V:	What was your reaction ?
Lisa:	Incredible. It was a beautiful letter. It took him days to compose it. It was very loving and romantic, very polite and well written, but oh so hot ! Obviously we have some different priorities but there was such a lot of overlap between Carlo's needs and mine. The sexual part was obviously a huge part of it but there was more to it than that. I have always needed to control my own life, to have independence, money and a career. And I don't want children. I never have. Please don't ask me why. He knew that before we married but the fact that Carlo was basically giving up all the important decisions about our lives together to me was an immense psychological moment. It was from then that I sort of knew that I had a different set of rights and responsibilities to other women, other wives. I felt responsible for Carlo in a slightly 'maternal' way. Not kinky maternal you understand, but ... oh, it's difficult to put it into words.
V:	How did you find Lisa's reaction ?
Carlo:	My first reaction was immense relief. I mean, that she didn't simply ridicule me. Or that she didn't fly off the handle and ask for a divorce. But after the initial relief I felt a surge of excitement too. And fear of the unknown. Once I knew that she was keen to give it a try. One way or another I knew my life was probably never going to be the same again.
Lisa:	And I knew mine was going to change too. Things moved pretty quickly from that point on. Carlo's letter gave me carte blanche to take total control. He listed his needs, or rather his wishes, but made it clear that things were up to me. He insisted I was to put my wishes first. Which (shrugs, smiling) ... I did.
Carlo:	If I may say, it was very important to me that I did not 'top from the bottom'. Submission is not a game for me, you know, all black leather and whips and ritual, with the man basically getting his fetish thrills. For as long as I can remember my desire was to submit in a much deeper, real sense.
Lisa:	I didn't always find it easy in those early months. I was 29 and although I've always been a feminist and, I guess, dominant and feisty, I am feminine too, and I think we are all victims of our upbringing. Fact: I love Carlo. Fact: he is my husband. As a woman, those two realities create a certain amount of emotional baggage. We are brought up on this fairy tale that all marriages are about being faithful, keeping our man sexually satisfied and having his evening meal on the table. It takes a while to 'unlearn' all of that, although it obviously depends on your own upbringing and situation.
V:	Was Carlo being younger than you a factor at all ?
Lisa:	No. Not in any way I can think of. The age gap is pretty small now. Once I began to think about our marriage, I realised that there were all sorts of tiny little ways it could be improved for me. Many of them were not in Carlo's letter or in his thinking. But I thought, why settle for less ?
V:	Could you give an example ?
Lisa:	Er ... shaving. You see, not anything particularly important or erotic ! Carlo is dark and he gets quite a five o'clock shadow if he only shaves in the morning. Now, I quite like how facial stubble looks but not how it feels. Here (points to her own cheek) or ... here (laughs, gestures between legs). Like any man I've ever known, Carlo was a bit lazy about shaving, certainly twice a day. I was constantly having to ask or remind him. But once it was my instruction as part of our new lifestyle, he has happily shaved every morning and again when he gets home after work, ever since. It probably is a tiny thing in the scheme of things but it's an example of making things better for me. I mean, most wives probably just put up with a bristly man kissing them goodnight. But I don't.
V:	What about the major ways things changed ?
Lisa:	You won't be surprised. All the usual things. Above all, domestic chores. We had a pretty traditional marriage up to that point. I mean, Carlo wasn't bad. Not bad for an Italian ! He helped out but I'd done the lion's share. We had a cleaner who did the ironing but I did all the shopping, cooking and most of the housework, in spite of my job and doing my professional qualifications. That all changed ! And I mean changed ! I still love to cook special meals when people come round, but for 5 years Carlo has done most of our day to day cooking. He serves me drinks and nibbles while he's preparing it too. He does all the washing up, cleaning, housework, laundry, supermarket type shopping. When our cleaner left a couple of years ago I didn't replace her. He now does my ironing and his too. Basically about half of each weekend and a couple of his evenings a week are taken up with domestic chores of all types. And you know what ? It's great (smiles) ! All he would often have been doing instead is watching TV or flicking through fashion magazines so he's no loss to me (gives a pleasant shrug and smile). We can still do things together on other nights.
Carlo:	Strangely, for a man who hated all housework growing up, I get a great deal of satisfaction from a job well done. You know, don't get me wrong. I'd rather read the paper or play football or pay a cleaner. It's monotonous and can be hard work. Especially after so many years of doing the same things. The sexual thrill of hand washing Lisa's underwear and making her bed has long since died and now it's just a chore. But I am still proud of doing a good job and pleasing her. Actually, I lied. There is one thing that still gives me a sexual buzz and that's cleaning the toilets. Still ! Even after more than five years. Sick, eh ?
V:	In what other major ways have things changed ?
Lisa:	You just want to get on to the other men, don't you ? (laughs). I have always had a high libido. Voracious appetite, it's been called. I was never promiscuous but I was a serial monogamist. Almost never out of a relationship, up until I met Carlo. Fidelity wasn't hard for me. But it didn't feel that natural either. If Carlo hadn't brought up my sleeping with other guys, then I wouldn't have done it. Well, I might have suggested it at some stage but not if it was a hard limit for him. But he wanted me to. And he certainly didn't have to persuade me either. In that sense, we really are a match made in heaven. I love cuckolding him. I even love the word. Everything about it. The thrill of a new guy's body. The fun of flirting. The sheer dirtiness of it all. Just having other relationships. I think it is vitally important that you enjoy what you're doing. I cannot imagine sleeping with other men just to satisfy Carlo's fetish if I wasn't turned on by doing it myself. If some women really do that, fine, but it's not for me. I have discussed this subject with a couple of my best girlfriends. One is quite envious, the other hates the idea. Before I married Carlo I would not have thought I would be into it either. As I said, it's how we women are brought up. And fidelity wasn't hard for me. But it is not the one or two years you spend being faithful that are the problem. It is when you think about the long years ahead that it starts to become difficult. The idea that, after having quite a few boyfriends, I was suddenly sleeping with the last man I would ever sleep with, quietly freaked me out. I think you're either somebody into the whole marriage exclusivity and security thing or you're not. I guess I'm not (smiles apologetically at me and removes a cigarette from pack, which Carlo lights). I said I was a monogamist but I once two-timed a boyfriend who I was going out with before I met Carlo. You know what ? I hated that. I didn't want to do it but I couldn't end the relationship with him and I'd met somebody else. It wasn't fun, all the ... you know ... subterfuge. I didn't enjoy the fact I was usually having sex with two different men a day. It lasted about a month and I look back on that time with embarrassment. But now it's completely different. I feel no guilt having lovers. None at all. Almost nobody who knows us ... you know, knows about us, our few really close friends ... actually thinks badly of me. And if they do, well fuck them (laughs) !
Carlo:	And if they do, she probably has. Literally ! (it is delivered as one of those jokes with a possible twist which I jotted down but, regretfully, forgot to return to later in the conversation - everybody laughs).
V:	Seriously, Carlo, what is it like for you ?
Carlo:	(long pause). The reality is very different from the fantasy. Like quite a few men perhaps, I had always been excited by the thought of my girlfriend having sex with other guys. Not always in a submissive way. Sometimes my fantasies were more equal, of a threesome say, even swapping and orgies. But it never happened. Telling Lisa she could sleep with other men, actually asking her to do it, was probably the hardest thing I have ever done. For an Italian that is like the ultimate dishonour. But it needed to be done. I was a fantasist who wanted to take that final step and make it a reality, you know. I think many men are actually happy for it to remain just a fantasy and they wouldn't want to make it happen, even if they knew their wives might be interested. To explain what it is like to another man who does not feel the same way is impossible. I have been hurt, many times, by Lisa and her lovers. But it is a delicious pain. Don't get me wrong. I'd prefer not be like I am, to have been born different. I'm happy as a submissive. But I would rather I did not have the specific desire to be cuckolded, if I had been given a choice about it. And it is especially hard being chaste too. I would rather I was not into chastity either. But (shrugs), that is my life. We must all play the hands we're dealt.
Lisa:	I think it's important to repeat on your tape just how consensual this all is. Carlo suffers because he wants to. I make him suffer because I want to. Sometimes if there was a secret camera on us you'd think, poor guy. Or even poor her ! I do enjoy it. It is not all an act. I love humiliating and tormenting Carlo. I admit that. I treat him badly, slap him, sometimes say terrible things. But deep down, it is because I love him. You might think that's not possible. But ... as he said, it is really hard to explain that to other people.
V:	I'm sure it's possible. Your feelings for each other seem very evident to me. Do you mind me asking about your sex life, with Carlo and with others ?
Lisa:	Sure. (Pause). Well, first things first, I enjoy sex. I am slightly bisexual. I lost my virginity late, aged 18, in the strict sense anyway, with a boy, but I had been having sex before that for three years with a girlfriend. I sort of grew into men, but still like women. For me, sex is this incredible thing. Some people seem to me, to see it in a very narrow sense, you know a man and a woman in the missionary position. That's what the word sex conjures up in their minds. But for me, sex is about everything a single person or couple or group of people can do for sexual excitement. It is wrong for somebody to think I am being unfaithful to Carlo simply because I'm actually having the sex itself with another guy. In fact, it is really all part of my sex life with Carlo. Do you see what I'm saying ? Carlo and I are having sex constantly, but just not in a way most people would imagine it. I'm not talking about him giving me oral sex or whatever, I'm talking about us having sex together mentally and emotionally almost 24/7, just not physically. For me, sex with another man is a type of sex with Carlo. So long as Carlo knows about it, not necessarily every time I see the guy, but about the relationship and it is not behind his back, then it is a triangular act but only involving me and the other man physically. Remember, it is orgasms that Carlo is denied, and penetration, and exclusivity, but not sex. It would be easy to say that I have a right to have sex with other men because Carlo does not give me the sex I need. But in fact Carlo gives me plenty of great sex. That is not why I do it. I can't put it any better than the old cliché comparison with food. You don't want caviar all the time. Or steak all the time. Or a burger. Most people in marriages are stuck with one meal for the rest of their days, though of course they can spice it up. There's nothing wrong with that. But I have the choice. You can't blame me for going up to the buffet for a different dish occasionally. I think if you could remove all the complications and hang ups and take it on a purely physical level, the vast majority of people would, both male and female.
V:	How often do you have sex ?
Lisa:	Me ? Oh, every day ! (everybody laughs). No. Really, pretty much. Maybe not during my period. I might have a day off, or if I'm ill or really tired. But sex helps me sleep so I have to be really tired. Carlo will tell you. I'd say sex every day and very often twice. I'm a morning girl. I think I'm quite rare like that. I love oral sex first thing after I wake up, after Carlo has shaved anyway. Climax and a coffee, sets me up for the day ! In the evening it depends. We may have a long session. I have grown to love massage and vibrator sex in the evenings. We do things properly with scented candles and low lighting. I have a hot bath while Carlo does the washing up then prepares the scene and warms the oil. He's become a very good masseuse. It's a physical activity giving an hour or more's massage and he needs his fitness and strength. I've had proper massages at Spas on holiday and Carlo now compares very well with them. But he's even better because his ones finish with a sexual massage. I have several vibrators but we mainly stick to one. It's two or three years old, a pink Rampant Rabbit. It's not over-sized but it's thicker than just about any man, with these ball bearings in the shaft that rotate and give amazing sensations. And Carlo knows how to play my clitoris like a dream with the bunny ears. The only thing is the buzzing noise of the batteries that I don't like but otherwise a vibrator is technically - I stress only technically - a match for any man. After I've come, Carlo cleans up and we either turn out the lights or watch TV. I never touch him on a massage evening. I keep the two things entirely separate, my time and his, except on the rare occasions when we make love. We both think he makes a better job if he's not distracted by the thought that he might get anything at all. Similarly, at other times, I make a better job of teasing or relieving him if I'm not caught up in the build up to a climax myself. Other times, if we're late to bed or whatever, I might just have a quick bit of oral at bedtime. As I said, it helps me sleep. Or maybe I'm with another man of course. It all depends. But I admit I probably have an above average sexual drive. I have even been known to masturbate myself at my office on occasions, still, in spite of all the sex I get with people. If my colleagues only knew (chuckles) ...
V:	And with other men. How often ?
Lisa:	That varies a lot. Over five years I've had many different situations. Thirty three men and two women in all. I checked before you arrived ! We like to keep a book, an album. We have framed photos of my past boyfriends all around our bedroom and bathroom. A nice way of reminding Carlo of them all ! Keeping him in his place. Look there's one of them there (points to a framed photo in the living room where we are sat). But don't get the wrong idea. Over twenty of them have been short term affairs, mainly on holidays abroad. I've only really had about ten proper boyfriends in five years. And it's not as if I'm some promiscuous tramp on the trawl for a new guy every night. There have been several periods of many months when I haven't been out with anybody else. And some have been long relationships. The longest so far was about six months. Some haven't known about Carlo and so they've been more like traditional affairs. You'd be surprised how some guys are put off by being, well, the stud. In the 'known-about-by-the-husband' sense. But a few have loved it. They've been happy to have sex with me in front of Carlo. Those usually become the most intense situations. Three were married and so their wives couldn't know. In many ways, affairs with married men are actually the easiest to find. Part of me doesn't like the fact that I'm disrespecting another woman but I figure that's really their problem, not mine. It's not as if I'm trying to break up a marriage. But most are single to varying degrees. And for a few I've been their girlfriend. In the sense of their sole relationship, for a while. The problem there is that they get jealous of Carlo. Ironic isn't it ! Eventually most of them don't want a three-way arrangement even though some think they do at first. Only one has actually asked me to leave Carlo and move in with him. But the thing that usually ends it is when it moves on from just a sex game to ... emotions. So as you can see, I've had pretty much every kind of relationship. And a couple have been almost every night while they lasted. Short but intense. Literally, the guy virtually staying in our house full time. But most have been occasional, just weekends or weeknights. The internet has changed things too, over the past year or so. I mainly use the site where I saw your advert. I've met my three most recent relationships via the site, including my current one. You come across a few timewasters online but you can meet some decent people too. And it's good for specific needs. Like I wanted to get in touch with my bi side again. I didn't want a single lesbian who might get heavy but a married bisexual like me, out for a bit of fun. It took a bit of time and effort but I found exactly the right lady. The internet's great like that. I had long fantasised about a threesome with two guys. Not Carlo. Two hunks both giving it to me at the same time while Carlo watched, tied up. That was the first time I used the site. I met each guy individually first. But everybody knew from the start where they stood. It was great, mind blowing in fact. So good that one of them is still sort of my current boyfriend now. He's the perfect partner for me. No jealousy, no commitment. Just fun. He's great looking, a good laugh and sexually wild. I've allowed him to become more involved in my treatment of Carlo than any previous boyfriend. So all in all, you can see how important a part other men play in our whole lifestyle.
V:	Wow. And what about love affairs. Have you ever fallen for somebody ?
Lisa:	(Pause). Not really. I have never had a problem differentiating between love and lust. I don't need to love a man to enjoy sex with him. Sure, I need to fancy him, and find him attractive on both a mental and physical level. Pretty much as any single woman not looking to get married would think. Can I have fun with this guy ? Do I want to see him again ? But, yes, I have felt attached to two or three men. In the sense of ... you know, thinking about them, looking forward to the next time you see them. Carlo and I both know that is a risk we take. But I think the likelihood of me actually falling head over heels for somebody to the extent that I would leave Carlo and give up the life I have ... no way. I simply can't see it happening.
V:	Could I ask what you are thinking, listening to this ?
Carlo:	There is nothing we haven't said to each other in private. Let me put it this way. In the cold light of day, it hurts. But I don't really live 'in the cold light of day'. Nor am I a submissive wimp who enjoys being trodden on 24 hours a day. Far from it. I spend 10 hours a day at work in a serious job, often giving orders. I am only a sexual submissive which is very different. The rules of our marriage are very simple to me. I live a voluntarily chaste, faithful life in permanent service to Lisa. If she wanted me to stop working, I would. But the reality is that I know she prefers me to have a job. It means that 50 hours a week something other than our relationship consumes us. Aside from the fact that I wear a chastity device and I have only a small allowance for a sandwich and travel in my pocket, I am, you know, much of the time a normal guy. While Lisa lives a completely different sort of life. I don't want her to deny herself. It isn't just that I get a thrill from being humiliated, cuckolded and dominated. That's part of it. Yes, for sure. But it is also that I want her to have the most amazing life, unencumbered by the dreary chores and concerns of daily routine. To date handsome men, to have romantic dinners with them, to laugh and have different conversations, and to have incredible sex. As Lisa has said, it's not as if I can't satisfy her sexually one way or the other. It's not as if conversation with me is boring either. Is it ? (Lisa makes a face and they both laugh). That's not the point. I aspire to much more than mere 'satisfaction' for her. But I'm not saying that her life as it is would be the envy of any other woman. As far as I can tell, the majority of wives would rather be faithful, although maybe affairs and divorce rates nowadays undermine that view. It takes a certain woman like Lisa to take advantage. I simply want her to do as she wants and if that is having lots of orgasms and affairs while making me do all the housework and suffer punishments then that is great, you know. Not always enjoyable, but always great.
V:	You live in permanent chastity ?
Carlo:	I do. Throughout the five years. Even before we married, we used to play chastity games based on trust. I used to promise Lisa I wouldn't masturbate while she was away on a training course, as she went on several in those days. I found it very hard and sometimes failed. I have always suffered guilt about masturbation. And even sex generally. My mother and all her family are strict Catholics. I don't have religious hang ups but I do think maybe I was affected. My mother used to lecture me and my brother about not abusing ourselves. She comes from the 'no sex before marriage' and 'no contraception' school. If we spent too long on the toilet when we were 13 or 14 she'd bang on the door and ask if we were doing unmanly things. I never thought about her sexual relationship with my dad, who's English, at the time. I think he probably had some affairs once mum got plump and disinterested, but I don't know for sure. We were all close knit but not open as a family about sex at all. In my letter to Lisa, I wrote to her that I wanted to use proper, strict devices that made it impossible for me to 'fail her', ie. to have an orgasm. We've been through dozens. Well, not dozens, but at least twenty. Only a few are absolutely 100% proof. The weekday ones have to be discreet enough for public use at my office. I wear a well cut suit that hides things well. The weekend ones can be heavier, less comfortable (pats the slight bulge in the corduroy trousers and smiles sheepishly). It is incredible after 15 years of being able to make yourself come just about whenever you liked, to hand over control to another person. I was fortunate, or unfortunate, depending on how you look at it. Lisa took to it like a duck to water. We began at one week intervals but within a short period we were up to one month gaps. Soon Lisa decided she preferred it to be random. Anything from one to six week gaps between my orgasms. Totally unpredictable and totally up to her. As she said, Lisa needed no persuading when it came to having sex with other guys either. Somebody once wrote that cuckoldry should follow chastity as night follows day. Obviously, many people and couples don't feel like that. They like just chastity or cuckolding, not both. I wanted both but I have to say that my crash course in chastity at the same time as Lisa had begun to date her first boyfriend since we married, that was a tough initiation. It has brought out a spiteful side in her. I'm not complaining. It's what I asked for. And a part of it is acting on her part. But (Carlo looks uncertainly at Lisa, before continuing) ... she has said that she really enjoys enforcing my chastity.
Lisa:	That's true. I'm not a sadist. If a man wasn't into it, I wouldn't do it. I don't try to impose chastity on any other man. On the contrary ! But with Carlo, it's different. I love the control. In fact, I have learned to enjoy the whole CBT thing much more than I thought I would. Carlo has a nice looking cock, when it's erect. Well sculpted, uncircumcised. Quite big. I love tormenting it. Having him tied up either on the bed or hanging from the ceiling beam. He is completely shaved from his anus, all around his genitals, to his belly button. He does it once a week, usually Sundays, while I watch. It grows back and really itches him by Thursdays. I play with him two, maybe three times a week. I bring him to the point of orgasm several times and then stop. It can take an hour, or 5 minutes, depending. Nowadays, we also have one of those fake-female-mouth, suction sex toy things. Sometimes I let 'her' do the hard work instead ! It is rather undignified for him having sex with a doll. The main thing is to stop before Carlo has come and leave him to slowly soften, before using ice cubes to make him tiny and re-lock on his Exo-Belt. That's the chastity device we mainly use Monday to Friday at the moment. It is at these times he's at his most submissive. What some people call deep sub space. He would do literally anything for release. That is when the real fun can begin ! Occasionally instead of using my fingers to play with him, I like penetration with Carlo. He is, after all, my husband. Usually I will ride his penis. Maybe every two weeks ? (looks to Carlo for verification) ...
Carlo:	I'd say two to three ...
Lisa:	It really depends on my mood. I put a couple of condoms on him. One on top of the other. It helps him to control himself. I make it good for him, for us. Slow. Kisses. I always have an orgasm myself. We refer to it as our 'making love' together. Mutual orgasm isn't essential for making love. Many men do it to their wives until he comes and she remains unsatisfied. That's happened for centuries. I just do the reverse ! It's my little blow for equality. Once a year I give him permission to come inside of me. Or in the condom anyway. It's very touching. He loves it, don't you ? But most of his orgasms are hard earned. And, what's the word, perfunctory. I stay fully dressed. I try to act like a nurse. You know, medical and efficient, not at all like a wife or lover at the time. The times when he's not going to come I tease him and make it last. I might even lick it then. You know, just a teasing tongue along the shaft and head. I haven't actually sucked Carlo's cock for five years. I used to a lot when we first started going out. But that's something I only do now for proper boyfriends. I actually enjoy doing it when I'm in the mood but Carlo wanted oral to be unreciprocated between us and I wasn't about to argue ! Anyway, sorry, I'm digressing. When it's one of those times I've decided I'm going to let him come, I get it out of the way as quickly as possible. Just a jerk, jerk, jerk, you know. One or two minutes maximum. Past the point of no return. And then I let go (she leans forward to the pack of cigarettes. Without being asked, Carlo takes one out and gives it to her then lights it). You have to time it just right. I look him right in the eyes and smile as he gets this look of bliss mixed with alarm because he knows I'll let go. I love to watch him humping the air trying to get some follow through. I've heard of milking the prostate to release the semen but I've never tried that on him, have I ? (she ruffles his hair). I prefer my method. Bring him to orgasm. Then let go, so that the actual mental high is quite limited. And the actual physical release is fairly minimal too, usually one spurt, or two. But if I leave him tied up for about ten minutes, the rest of his load slowly trickles out as his erection softens. I love to tease him that I should have kept him waiting even longer if one measly spurt is all he can come up with after several weeks. Of course, another trick I do, is tell him in advance that the next Sunday will be a release day. Then I 'forget' (winks) all about it. Carlo is forbidden ever to ask for release or remind me. And sulking is a strict no-no. He knows I haven't really forgotten and I know he's pretending not to notice. It's a fun game between us, saying on Monday morning, 'oh rats, I forgot, oh well, next Sunday I promise'. Sometimes I even get him all ready and start the jerk, jerk, jerk process. But after a few seconds I stop and make a phonecall or something. I invent some reason why we've got to stop and carry on later, which of course, sometimes I don't do. I love the expression on his face as he reluctantly gets dressed. On Sundays he often gets to go without his chastity device for several hours while I keep him in my eyesight to check he doesn't touch himself. Such an exercise in self control.
Carlo:	You'd better believe it.
Lisa:	(smiles). Shhh ! But it is best for both of us when chastity and cuckolding are combined. When we started I was embarrassed to involve Carlo in my sex with other men. Even now, I don't like men to abuse him verbally or certainly not physically. I cannot imagine any wife wanting that. My men interact with me and that's fine. Carlo sometimes watches and of course touches, holds and licks me. That's humiliating enough. And he brings us drinks, serves food, drives us, even drives my boyfriends home and picks them up like a chauffeur, does their laundry and sometimes washes their cars. All those things and more. They do not thank him, sure, but they don't abuse him either. It is best if they ignore him, as if he really was just a butler or driver. Once I had the first boyfriend who was enthusiastic about making Carlo a cuckold, and who often stayed with us, who moved Carlo temporarily out of my bedroom, we had the idea of making him 'the keeper of Carlo's keys', as we called him. Not literally. I still had the keys but I used to discuss with him whether it was time for Carlo to be allowed to come. It was the contrast we all enjoyed. He'd arrive on a Friday evening to stay for the weekend, having not been around, say, since Tuesday. He'd be horny as hell, moaning how he hadn't had sex for 72 hours ! I'd joke and say what, not even a wank ? And he'd respond what do you take me for, a pathetic wanker ! He was a real alpha male this guy, own business, big physically, and dominant in a nice way. All of this was in front of Carlo of course, and all designed to put him down. An hour later, after we'd had frantic sex on the patio - this was in Summer - and were relaxing with a drink, we'd plan our weekend and, just as Carlo was topping up our glasses, I'd ask him - that's my boyfriend - about whether Carlo should be allowed to have an orgasm at some stage. He'd ask me how long since he'd come and I'd reply three weeks. And he'd say three weeks, that's not very long. All in contrast to him complaining earlier about going without for 72 hours ! All a game, and perhaps quite tame, but we enjoyed it.
V:	To be honest, it doesn't sound tame to me. On the contrary. It all sounds a very tough and humiliating regime. Is it easier now than when you began ?
Carlo:	Easier ? No. I don't think so. Well, in a way yes, in a way no, you know. It is easier because I am trained, because I'm used to things. I am now used to only having an orgasm once every four weeks or so. My body and mind have adapted in a way. But firstly it is not really possible to train yourself to be satisfied with that, at least not in my view. I mean, maybe if you're a monk. But monks aren't surrounded by a sexy wife as I am. Secondly, and I think more importantly, Lisa has always looked for ways to stretch things further, make them harder. That's what I want too of course. If you're a runner and you can do five miles in a certain time, what do you try and do ? Run six miles. Or run a faster time. Push yourself. So I guess looking back on certain things that were hard five years ago, they sound a bit tame to us now. But only because we've moved on. It is definitely true what they say. That the longer you go without coming and the more desperate you get, then the more submissive you feel. Sitting here now doing this interview, I can sort of feel ashamed at some of the things we've talked about, even with just you and Lisa, anonymously. Sometimes after I've had an orgasm I go through a bad patch, a day or so, when I am disgusted with myself. But soon that passes and by the time a few weeks have passed I'm so desperate I'll do anything, take any humiliation or punishment, perform any task. The only hard limit I have is gay sex of any sort. Not that Lisa is into that either, thank heavens. Except for cream pies of course. Is licking up another man's come a gay act ? (Pause) I'm not sure. You could argue it is. But for us it's natural, however gross I find it. We've done it since the very start, safe sex permitting. Lisa has always loved it. Maybe I should let ... (looks at Lisa)
Lisa:	No. Carry on. I'll comment in a minute.
Carlo:	I don't think it's just the physical act. The oral sex. It's the symbolism. Not just of her right to have another man come inside her, though that's certainly part of it. It's the symbolism of oral sex itself, you know. Just as many women regard giving a guy a blowjob, certainly letting him come in their mouth, as a submissive act. Or a symbol of submission anyway. Sure we both like the inequality of me doing oral on her without her reciprocating. But we have long ago moved on from just that. Lisa likes to make it hard for me to do. Sometimes, not always. Like sitting down really heavily on my face. Obviously analingus too. Cream pies. But those are straightforward, though not easy. Then she graduated onto other ways to make the whole thing more ... challenging, I guess is the right word, but you could say unpleasant ... for me. Shall we just say, not being entirely hygienic, whether in her toilette, or during her period, whatever. I can assure you that a fresh cream pie is easy to stomach compared with one that has festered overnight or during a whole hot Summer's day. You have to be a slightly sick submissive like me to get any real pleasure out of burying your tongue into an unwashed, cheesy ripe and pungent ... pussy. Especially (looks up at Lisa again) with a mad woman verbally abusing you while you do it ...
Lisa:	(ruffles Carlo's hair). I'd like to go back to cream pies for a second, fresh or otherwise. Cream pies. Such a silly term. I'm sure they are really a male obsession. Most women, most of the time, would rather make love in a nice clean bed when they are nice and clean themselves, in sexy lingerie with soft lighting. That's how I visualise myself making love with an abstract man. But Carlo and I don't 'make love' often. We 'have sex'. It's still an expression of our love but it's not romantic missionary. It's not even a 'good shag' such as I have with other guys. It's dirty, bdsm sex. And for that I'm not interested in 'nice and clean'. To sit in a chair and look down on Carlo lapping in the folds of my swollen pussy that is smelling of second hand sex and oozing liquid onto his tongue. I'm sorry, but to anybody - any woman - who has not known that feeling, it's impossible to describe. It is that secret place where the heights of love meet the depths of lust. As Carlo knows, it is the only time I can sometimes have multiple orgasms, that is when they all roll into each other, several, ie. four or five in quick succession. I don't know about other women. I've discussed cream pies with a couple of friends and both sort-of-get it. But I'm prepared to accept that it's a part of my personality we don't all share. (Pause). Another thing to emphasise is safe sex. Obviously I ask any man I don't know to use a condom. And condoms and cream pies sadly don't go together. I mean, there's something about being all puffy and stretched down there, and the smell of rubber and another man's sweat without his come. We both like that anyway. So I'm not going to take a risk with my or Carlo's health just for the sake of our cream pie fetish. It's not even AIDS. There are a lot of low grade sexual diseases that people are carrying and passing onto each other. Touch wood, I've been very lucky. And when I get to know a guy well enough to call him a boyfriend and to talk about, you know, sexual history and activity with him, then I make a decision. As I said earlier, I try to think like a single woman. If I'd have unprotected sex with him if I were single, then I do. If not, I don't. (Pause). So, yes, when possible I like to put Carlo through his oral tests. Everything but full-on-scatological stuff. You have to be careful with bacteria. Strangely, I'm more likely to catch infections from Carlo's mouth than give them to him from my vagina. Strange but true. That's what a doctor told me anyway, although he didn't know the full story ! (laughs). We get through a lot of mouthwash in our house don't we ? (Carlo smiles and nods). My favourite is golden showers. And green showers. I simply adore peeing in Carlo's mouth after I've eaten asparagus. Never get bored of that one, even after a hundred times. But best is making Carlo drink my pee when we have vanilla guests round. Everybody's drinking white wine or champagne. Nobody else knows, but Carlo's has come from a separate bottle, maybe with some water added until it's the right colour. He has to be careful to keep a close eye on his glass ! Not at the dining table, that's too risky, he has water. But beforehand, over the drinks, he guzzles Chateau Lisa don't you darling ?
V:	That leads us on to another subject. You have extended Carlo's denial beyond just sex ?
Lisa:	Yes. For several years now. It was his wish, and mine, to make him a 'better man'. In the genuine sense. But also going way beyond what could actually be considered good for somebody. We set out to eliminate those cliché male habits one by one. Obviously no masturbation. And limited sex focused solely on his wife. But no jealousy of his wife. No laziness. So doing all the chores around the house. I was strict and really took advantage. I cannot see any real point in playing this game if the one making the rules doesn't get the most out of it. I want Carlo to get his kicks but as a bi-product of my fun, basically by indulging myself. So I became a 'better woman' by being the opposite; lots of sex, demanding, lazy. Then we moved on to more unreasonable demands. Not just denial. Training and behaviour modification too. No alcohol. No sweets. No sport on TV. No passing wind. No taking his time on the toilet reading a magazine. No leaving the seat up on the toilet or the top off the toothpaste, not that he really ever did that. You know, in other words, no annoying habits. And no wasting money on boys toys. Almost never going out alone with his male friends. Finally, we became more specific. In other words, not saying what he couldn't have, but specifying what he can have. Just water and fruit juice to drink. A strict diet, mainly bland and low-cal, but 'super healthy' like grilled chicken and fish and unsalted vegetables, and green salad without dressing. No TV at all unless invited by me. I choose his reading material, mainly magazines for his work and educational mind-broadening books, and embarrassing romantic novels - you know, the slushy books aimed at women readers - when we're on holiday. He hates reading those around the pool ! Having to ask me for permission to use the toilet or take a shower. No privacy, so no shutting the door of the bathroom, WC or his study. All salary and investments paid over to me or under my control. It's a joint account so it's still both our money but I have sole control over it. He has to ask me for money except his small daily allowance. Obviously, as the rules developed, I was really pushing it. Carlo had always jogged but I imposed a diet and exercise regime to make him super fit and hunky. Flat stomach, strong muscles. I think you'd agree it worked. Some things we tried didn't work. Two years ago, I arranged for Carlo to do two Saturday jobs. But they were minimum wage jobs, at a dry cleaning store on Saturdays and washing up in a pizza restaurant on Saturday evenings. The idea was to teach him real humility by making him, as a graduate and professional, do these menial, casual jobs for peanuts, which he then had to pay over to me anyway. And of course I was having a lie in, shopping, lunching and dating on the Saturday, and the Saturday evening. We stuck with it for four months but eventually pulled his day job, then the evening one. It wasn't really working. Or perhaps it was working too well. For the first time Carlo started to get quite depressed, resentful even. When this happened at other times - like when he gave up all booze - we worked through it. Which was our first reaction to this too. But we realised that it was making us grow apart while pretty much all the other deprivations and things I put him through made us stronger, underneath it all. So that was something that didn't work, although I'm glad we tried it. You too, aren't you ?
Carlo:	Yes.
Lisa:	So that's about it basically. Shoo. I can't believe there's much we haven't told you about.
V:	Could I just ask about punishments ? How do you punish Carlo ?
Lisa:	(Long pause, thinking). To be honest, physical punishment is not a major part of our relationship. I enjoy punishing his genitals and moderate corporal punishment. I also slap Carlo's face when I'm cross. Hard. Back and forward. He turns the other cheek like a good boy as his skin reddens and sometimes his eyes water. But I don't use severe pain, even as a threat. But I don't need punishment because Carlo doesn't often deserve it. In a way his life is one big punishment session anyway. No, seriously. In the sense that if I want to punish him I can extend the time to his next orgasm or withdraw a meal, make him slave away on some dreary chore, fine him his daily allowance, something like that. But the thing is, I do those things all the time anyway. Gratuitously. I mean, I do sometimes say, 'that's your relief delayed another week', if he does something wrong. But we both know I'm just as likely to delay it for a week to amuse myself and torment him anyway, simply because that's what I do.
Carlo:	I agree. Personally I fantasise about suffering a really severe caning. To see what it would be like. But I know that Lisa would never be into that and, to be honest, I don't think I'd actually enjoy it. Even in a masochistic sense. And I don't ever want Lisa to do things just for me, you know, so I'm happy to forego it in fact.
Lisa:	My favourite punishments centre on his genitals. My favourite chastity device is the Kali. It's obviously not practical for weekday use or really even at night, but it's perfect for all day Saturday and again on Sunday, unless we're going to the beach. I prefer Carlo tanned and, in Summer, I let him sunbathe and swim in trunks that are not compatible with chastity devices in public places ! It's fun painting Deep Heat (a burning muscle cream sold in UK) over the Kali's steel spikes. And obviously my goal is to excite Carlo so his cock tries to swell. The easiest way to do that is to get a boyfriend round for lunch or dinner and to have loads of sex with him while Carlo cooks, serves, washes up. Frankly I'd much rather that kind of session than whips and chains any day. Oh, and I love nettles. And recently I discovered figging. That's putting a piece of ginger up Carlo's backside. It really stings. I scrub his balls with nettles and his bottom with ginger until he's hopping from one foot to the other, and then whack his bum with a table tennis bat. That's as severe as our corporal punishment gets. I don't let my current boyfriend hit him but I do let him watch me punish Carlo.
V:	Thank you both so much. Just two final, more practical questions. First, are you concerned about health issues, such as prostate concerns ?
Carlo:	Not really. From what I've read a monthly release is probably okay. It's why we've sort of agreed to a six week maximum regardless, so far. But I do take various urinary and reproductory health supplements. And you have to look at health in a broad context. I now eat well. I exercise. I no longer smoke or drink. Am I taking more or less risk than I would do living a different lifestyle ? Probably less. I am healthier than I was ten years ago, for sure. To me it's a small risk worth taking. Other men might not agree.
Lisa:	I am keen that he goes for an annual check-up. There's some test they can do for prostate cancer, although I think Carlo's a bit young to worry yet anyway. Perhaps in a year or two we may have to up his frequency a bit. I'd like to try one really long chastity test and then, if he passes it, perhaps increase his frequency slightly, or introduce milking of his prostate, though that doesn't appeal to me much. For the moment those are for deciding another day. As for now, we're fine.
V:	And finally, could I ask where you think this will all lead to, or end ?
Lisa:	Hah ! We've talked about that. I can't see myself aged 70 still shagging other guys and tormenting Carlo's wrinkled box of tricks ! But that's a long way off, thank heavens. (Pause). It's a problem. There isn't a lot more that we haven't done yet that we both want to do. To be honest, I'm not sure how many more years of having boyfriends, for example, I want anyway. There's something pretty desperate about a 50 year old woman still cuckolding her husband I think. I'd like to get out at the top as it were, while I'm still an attractive prospect for my lovers. Of course, I may think differently when the time comes ! But seriously I've sort of had my fill. No, not yet. There are a couple of things I'd still like to try. But I can't see me sleeping with that many more people and maybe only for another five years, or ten tops. Of course, that doesn't mean that the chastity, my domination, our one-to-one life won't continue for a long time afterwards. That will never totally finish. Sicko here (gestures at Carlo) would like me to have children. Yes, conceived with another guy but brought up by us. But I haven't got a maternal bone in my body so he'll be denied that particular humiliation. Personally I think there's a bit more pushing of the envelope we can do yet. I still have one or two ambitions. I would like to make contact with a dominant couple, you know, a married husband and wife, and go on holiday for a week or two with them. To some nice tropical hotel. We'd have wild bouts of threesome sex while Carlo served us all. I'd like to watch another woman tease and torment Carlo. I don't think I'd be jealous so long as it was done in the right way and just for a vacation. Of course, she wouldn't have sex with him. Not fuck him. But she would enjoy his tongue. That's something I'd like to plan for us next Summer. I also want to step up the public humiliation. Basically to become completely open about our marriage to the world. That's both our goal. The ideal, although I'd be embarrassed telling certain people. The only thing that stops me is my own parents but I would like to be honest with them some day - not necessarily all the sordid details - and then be really 'in your face' about it all. Carlo agrees that would open up a whole new set of possibilities. We'd both like to try, just once perhaps, a full-on official relationship - a ménage a trios - where he moves out of my bedroom and another guy moves in long term, and we host drinks and dinner parties and everybody knows what's going on. When I say long term I mean maybe a year. And my boyfriend would hold Carlo's keys and take him to levels of frustration I couldn't manage. Basically Carlo wouldn't come the whole time this relationship continued. That's his dream as well as mine, by the way. So he'd be desperate for it to end. Eventually it would because I don't want somebody else forever, but not until I'm good and ready and this guy and I will have had a full-on 'marriage within a marriage'. That would be a good last fling for me. Or last major fling. Fanciful, perhaps, but that's what we'd like to try before we both retire. Yes ?
Carlo:	I have nothing to add to that. Her wish is my command !
V:	Thank you very much both of you.

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Page last updated 07-Aug-09 by: Altairboy@aol.com